Unpaved Podcast

How do you plan incredible gravel & bikepacking routes?

Episode Summary

We're in the Peak District for episode two with Stef Amato from cycle touring specialists Pannier.cc, the route masters of Second City Divide Luke Douglas and Christian Smith, and enduro turned gravel rider and photographer Duncan Philpott.

Episode Notes

We're back for our second episode, this time up in the glorious Peak District National Park. We're joining Stefan Amato, founder of Cycle Touring brand Pannier.cc, Luke Douglas and Christian Smith, the duo behind the new Second City Divide bikepacking route, as well as their newly fledged Outdoor Provisions sustainable nutrition brand, and outdoor photographer Duncan Philpott.

Check out more from our guests at: 

https://www.pannier.cc/

https://www.secondcitydivide.cc/

https://www.outdoorprovisions.co.uk/

If you're inspired to give it a go, check out the official Second City Divide Collection on komoot.

If you'd like to try the route that Stef made for us in the Peak District you can find it on our komoot account here. Alternatively, we've also uploaded a more challenging route from Alpkit's Sonder Winter Gravel Series ride from nearby Hathersage. Why not both?!

Thanks to our podcast sponsor, komoot, we can offer new users a free map region bundle! To claim your free region bundle as a new user of komoot, head over to https://www.komoot.com/account/gift/?code=UNPAVED .

Make sure you enter our giveaway to be in with a chance of winning a pair of tickets to Brother in the Wild by signing up to our newsletter here. You'll find full details and T&Cs on that page.

Read the episode transcript here.

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Cover art thanks to Luke Douglas (photography) and Hannah from Yoke Creative and Tim Wilkey (design), Music by LTO, Vegyn & Keplr.

Episode Transcription

Tom 

This is Unpaved episode 2 and today's episode starts from the platform at Bamford Station. Bamford is just outside of Sheffield in the Hope Valley and it's quite a quaint little station and absolutely freezing.

The weather forecast hadn't look so good for about a week out I thought we were gonna get hypothermia or something because it was looking like minus 2 and torrential rain - the drive over there's a lot of snow when we were on Snake Pass but then when we dropped into the valley that was quite a lot of sunshine wasn't there, and although it was kind of bitter on the platform like actually I was a bit reassured that the bike ride wasn't can it be riding in a blizzard.

Katherine

You know Stef had said the Hope Valley is a bit of a microclimate.

Tom

So Stef is one of the guests that we've got in the program today, Stef's from Pannier which is a bike touring company that organizes trips all over the UK and actually all over the world as well. We've got Stef on board because this episode is about route planning.

Katherine

So we've got Luke and Christian coming from the other side of the Peak and they've come over from Manchester and those guys are responsible for the Second City Divide route which is almost entirely off-road route that you can ride between Glasgow and Manchester. And I can say from firsthand experience that it's an absolute banger. They also went into business together this year and launched the Outdoor Provisions nutrition brand making bars with compostable wrappers and all sorts of other exciting things.

Tom

We've got local legend Duncan Philpott, mountain bike photographer and more recently gravel riding, really fascinating bloke so that was yeah, good little group of us. I think that was a really nice chat to them and I liked the Outdoor Provisions. We were carrying a Bakewell pudding. They had Bakewell tart bars so we felt very Peak District on brand.

Katherine

I like how you're taking credit for that! Stef was carrying a Bakewell pudding.

Tom

Did I take credit for it?

Katherine

Yeah you said we.

Tom

I mean you know that's not taking credit for it.

Katherine

I think Stef deserves full credit that was, that was really nice.

Tom 

He does deserve credit. I really like to ride him next to Stef because in his frame bag I could hear the metal cups and his stove kind of clanking along as we were going. That was a very important thing to emphasize inside his frame bag, no dangling on this trip.

Katherine

I think that's probably my favorite part of the whole episode actually but you'll get onto that later.

Tom

Yeah we end on that bit of a issue yeah for anyone that doesn't know dangling is dangling a mug off of a bag somewhere.

Katherine

I don't think I've ever asked you, are you dangle or anti-dangle?

Tom

Oh well you know what this rep so definitely put me off. I have dangled on a practical level it is just really handy because quite often you can't fit a big tube into back very easily and I also ride with a carradice

bag and it's got like little buckle straps which are just perfect for putting through the handle of a mug so it's kind of inviting you to do it but the pockets on the side of it are also the exact size of most of those mugs so you can kind of put them in and then just pack everything inside it which is yeah, pair of pants in your mug is good! So I'm kind of sitting on the fence with it a little bit see  how many of our listeners think, a pro vs. anti-dangle.

Tom

The dangle poll to rival doodle poll. Katherine - yeah by packing is a number one question I mean,

obviously it's a really obvious question to answer because... I don't want to get the shits!

Tom

Don't give it away!

Katherine

Okay so you know but why is it so obvious to be so anti dangle cos you just get filthy mug and then you got to drink out of it yeah, just pack your bags better really, it fits inside.

Tom

Right let's go so will will let everyone introduce themselves and then yeah you're gonna hear us set off on the ride round Ladybower and Damflask reservoir and Howden I think it's the third one and then kind of loop back after the ride you'll hear a sort of longer chat where we sit down in the pub.

Yeah and don't forget that you can go and do this ride yourself as well we're gonna have all of the routes from every episode of Unpaved on our komoot account and if you haven't heard of komoot before it's a route planning a navigation app so that ties in really nicely to this episode because we're talking about how you plan really great off-road routes and that's just really great tool for it, especially with the algorithms that meaning that you can choose either mountain biking or gravel riding or road depending on what kind of flavor of ride you're into so hopefully you'll come on this ride with us and if you get inspired then you can obviously download the route but you can also have a little go at trying to see what it comes up with in your local area or if you fancy going out on a ride after this.

So let's stop, let's get going - here comes a train.

Luke

I'm Luke, one of the founders of Second City Divide and more recently Outdoor Provisions from the Manchester side and first time I've ever met Stef from Pannier.cc who I've followed for ages!

Christian

I'm Christian, the other half of Outdoor Provisions and Second City Divide as well. I also live over in Manchester with Luke, not in the same house, that I'd be pretty bad.

Duncan

I'm a photographer of most things outdoors, kind of transitioned more into this style of cycling from the World Cup Downhill, cross-country race scene which used to be where I started before.

Stef

I'm Stef, one half of Pannier.cc, a bikepacking adventure cycling tour company.

Katherine

So what you got planned for us today Stef?

Stef

So we're in the Peak District today, in the Dark Peak area quiet roads gravel tracks, proper mountain bike territory if you head towards Hope Valley. We're going to do basically heading on the Thornhill Trail out to the first of three reservoirs to skirt around the Ladybower, Howden and Derwent, they're kinda famous from early 1900s when they were built to provide loads of water for further south towards Nottingham, super nice quiet road and then the East Bank's gravel tracks all the way around and from there you can end up back in the top end of Bamford Village there's a

community pub there so we're gonna stop there.

Katherine

And you say Peak rather than the Peaks, which was very early nipped in the bud in my first email to you. Why is that?

Stef

Only because I was calling it that and then loads of people kept telling me it was the Peak early on so I got it nipped in the bud yeah because there aren't really many Peaks, Mam Tor's probably the only typically peaky peak. There is Kinder's the high point but it's it's kind of a plateau so it's nice rolling it you know nothing here is as epic as some of the other national parks but you know it's got a nice escape factor and it's stunning and high enough to get out and have a adventure on the bikes yeah that's the original National Park as well it's the first of all that's where they started with a mass trespass first mass trespass was upon to Kinder to protest against land ownership and stuff and then shortly after that the government formed the National Parks the Peak was the first one followed by the lakes and all the other ones so it's like OG of National Parks.

Stef

It's the most accessed National Park as it's a central location to Leeds Manchester Sheffield Nottingham, Derby and it's kind of accessible from all over which is makes it cool a cool point and for us we had the Sheffield and Manchester contingent so it kind of made sense to meet on the famous slow train line between the two halfway in the Hope Valley.

Tom

So what you've been doing something the lead up to starting Pannier? What were you doing when you were Stef before you were Stefan, one half of Pannier?

Stef

So I grew up in Croydon and came to Sheffield to study architecture and worked an Architect for five or six years in London. I got into cycling from being in Sheffield in the Peak while studying, playing a lot of rugby and cycling was there, a new form of getting out and about and exercising, fitness, a lot of road riding had like an entry level Giant road bike that I loved getting out on. Used to do around to Chatsworth and back which was nice to do at the weekend and then a long tour doing Lands End to John O'Groats, and that really changed the way you thought about riding bikes three of us me and two good mates Luke and Danny didn't really know what we were doing. 

Kind of waterproofing stuff with bin bags on the back of our racks, sleeping in pub beer gardens in

tents. Yeah and we just lived the free life for 12 days I think it took us.

Tom

How did it change everything?

Stef

Just saw the the freedom and the leisure aspect of riding bikes as opposed to the kind of riding for fitness or whatnot on the road we still weren't really riding anything unpaved obviously at that point but it's that slow travel aspect but still is at the heart of what I kind of try and do today. Whether - even when we're racing it's always a slow element and yeah started blogging about our travels and taking people on trips from about 2010-2011 and it's slowly developed into what it is today in 2020, and we've got a full calendar of trips and tours planned in for this year. Tom - What I like about the look of the trips and I've never been one is that they are something which you could book thinking I want an adventure holiday but it seems like it's as much about teaching skills and confidence, so people can do it themselves.

Yeah I think I think that's definitely the case whether intentional or not yeah. We got a whole range of folk come on our trips, last year was the first year we kind of ran quite a few trips and had a lot of people coming through which is great. I mean that's one of the main things, I still enjoy what I'm doing is meeting everyone taking people and hosting people out in cool places but yeah they range from people who are super experienced by bikepackers and just want to come along for the social or the group aspect if they maybe don't know a lot of people who do the same stuff. People who've never done anything like it before maybe they're fell runners or outdoorsy people already and looking at try something new or ride a lot of road and I'm interested in this new mass niche form of riding bikes, all gravel adventure side of things so hopefully we're a bit of a gateway and this it's quite nice to hear back from people they've been on a trip maybe like a month or three months later who maybe they've gone and bought bike and some bags and it's going and doing stuff themselves but what's really nice is that even if that is the case they'll generally come back on another trip you know yeah.

There's arguments in it you know when we're promoting what we're doing to the general public it's always people who say oh you know they're public why would you not just go and do it yourself and I'm a huge advocate for both like that's how I got into it and I still go off and do it. Anyone who emails us about a trip and says what route's that can I have it? I'll happily help them out and point them where we go and actually it's quite a nice collaborative collaborative process where they're like oh yeah that looks great I can I can see where you you're going on that map or that mapping app and they'll effectively plot it themselves with my help so if people know where the nearest towns are from plotting it themselves or whatnot then that's great. Katherine - So can you tell us where we are now?

Stef

So on the right is Bamford Edge that one and it's the gritstone that climbers around the world all come to visit It's weird you'll be here one of the big Alpine peaks in a hut and someone will be off to climb the North Face of it, and they'll be like, oh yeah, I know Stanage! Yeah this was a bustling village at one point.

Katherine

You just take it for granted when you have running water in a city you don't think about where that's come from what impact that's had on people.

Christian

Yeah, that's like the Desert of Wales stuff, Elan Valley.

Stef

You're talking about how you plan routes before, and one bit of real planning or trip generation is basically stay away from roads it leads to the best form of route generation because you're trying to connect places with tracks or paths or loads of unpaved stuff and that's what leads to the interesting trips and escape routes basically.

Tom - When you first started doing it how did you start that process well when I was first doing this sort of stuff I was a map geek anyway, it was an OS map thing Google Maps, komoot and all these apps and GPS things weren't a thing especially in my world. Pink one to fifty thousand map I basically pick out the yellow the yellow roads and dotted tracks. Early on I wasn't doing everything offroad, so the off-road stuff's probably only been three or four years but yeah it was a case of digging out all the yellow roads and then where you can't get to where you want to go trying to link up the dotted tracks and bridleways looking pretty much going to you that I'll lead to a nice route I'd say and then check the contours obviously. One of those things that you learn you learn when you go don't you make a mistake once and then you know what you're looking out for next time.

Christian

I think that's one of the things on route planning, like you've got to be prepared to have a bit of a shit ride or something go wrong and not be right this is constant refinement as well if you've got to do that and he will yeah you'll have bad times like you might have seen the picture of Luke just done a Second City Divide - Edinburgh link up basically and he was out in the Pentlands that the other day and he was like walking through knee high cow shit that's reality of route planning.

Stef

I think the biggest experience factor for route planning is for me is now turned into not just route generation but working out what a group of unknown people might be able to get around or making stuff accessible for people that you might not know that anyone can sort of book on our trips. Dave and I ask a few questions and get a bit of information to make sure everything's right but they are designed as accessible adventures say we always know people can get around them. They might be challenging for some super challenging for others or kind of nice riding for others but pit stops along the way and it's kind of knitting together a route that has stops around lunch like snack stops or sheltered spots where people can regroup so it's not just the route anymore from it's a lot, it's a lot about resupply connecting stuff and yeah. And if stuff goes wrong for example, us getting out with it that's another big big factor so you know if you come on up anything sort of Pannier or organized by me recently it's got all those factors at play it's not it's not just the simple way to be.

Katherine

And hopefully that's something you'll never have to see or understand but it's really important to have there's emergency exit routes and I think that's what it's become now I was thinking about those other things as well. I think that really you can learn about a place so well just from plotting

your own route and seeing contours and someone would be like oh that bit you said there that looks awful but yeah the accommodations just over the hill or there's a village there were pub and someone will say there's - actually a really good one the other week about the late district and the guy was like, down from Thirlmere to Grasmere that's the main road which is what you basically said avoid main roads so he spotted that and I was like it's fine, it's all downhill it's really wide it's fine so you know that's that was collaborative process of route planning. So on a map that it looks a bit naff but it's fine in real life.

Tom

So when did you first get the idea to start trying to connect Glasgow and

Manchester?

Luke 

The UK's two most glamorous cities? It probably - the trip we did that gave us the idea was well the two trips were a Badger Divide, so doing Inverness to Glasgow which I didn't make it all the way out but bailed toward the end and that the Torino Nice Rally which were incredible trips but just took quite a lot of logistics. Especially the Torino Nice one,it was worth it because you get to drive through the Alps but you had like a day and a half or even two days of travel either side all the way we did it you did anyway.

But we like the idea of riding city to city on a big A to B trip that was kind of super exciting and linking together lots of nice parts. We've kind of had an inkling of areas that we liked and a couple of like belting stretches that we've seen so like Salter Fell Road which is this sort of 12km section in Lancashire so we knew that wanted to be in it and we knew that there was the Cam High Road bit in Yorkshire straight-out Ribblehead that we wanted to link and then these bits in the borders that ridden so they kind of, they already were in place and then from looking at maps after that we went and found even better or as good places in between but not first try. We had to go and be a lot of recce-ing a lot in winter and stuff to kind of test and actually you rule out a lot of stuff like we got into riding these kind of - I don't want to keep calling them gravel bikes or adventure bikes but - the kind of riding whereby you weren't you actively looking to avoid roads or certainly busy roads because there's plenty of good B roads on this some of the best bits are some of these like hidden B roads but it was to really hit the kind of wild places and use the kind of high volume tires and the fact that you had your gear with you to be a bit further away from civilization, stuff which is in the Scottish bit you definitely are. It's quite big stretches between resupply. If we went anywhere that we thought was great we put that down as like a point of interest, because it's useful to know what time it opens and is it seasonal and what kind of stuff you can rely on# getting.

Tom

How long does it take to do?

Luke

It was six hard days like probably harder than we wanted to but like I say it's got a little bit more refined since then so I think still think six days is a good time to do it in Steve Bates the Paralympian absolutely battered it in about two and a half days but he he also did like a 38 hour riding day to do that so depends what time of year you'd go and what kind of, how you want to  stay because you you could do the whole of Second City staying in B&Bs if you wanted to, like it goes through enough places but you might struggle in Scotland but if you're going kind of fairly light and fast but have enough stuff to sleep in I think that four five six day mark

perfect for Second City.

And like I say it champions UK exploration, UK riding, UK bike packing, which is so diverse like you go through so many different landscapes, areas, accents in in 600k it's so diverse. You've got like you get hints of Jordie when you're over at Kielder. There you got Manc then you've got thick Lancastrian, bit of Cumbrian through the Pennines and then into like Scottish Borders and hard Glaswegian at the other end of it and there's loads of like a big mix of food as well. There's just so much more than just going and riding your bike this the things that it can open you up to because you go over Hadrian's Wall, like a massive bit of British history and culture there you could stop and spend a day there if you wanted to there there's that new Sill Hostel on Hadrian's Wall, it's like one of the newest YHAs which is a great stop off place it I think there's about six YHAs on the route it's a another great accommodation option.

You're supposed to ride it Glasgow to Manchester but then Katherine's done it the other way and taking a load of nice photos for whoever wants to ride it Manchester Glasgow now. Tom - Is that very annoying?

Luke

Not really just those many because we liked the name Glasman, we started talking about the Glasman as a bit of a mythical beast that hunts dangle mugs and those people have taken that on now have heard all sorts of stories about people's encounters with the Glasman and now to the point where I'm not even sure if he's real or not.

Tom

Does he hide under bridges like a troll?

Luke

Yeah that is one story I've heard yeah, love's love's mucky misty Pennine weather yeah. Extremely dangerous do not approach. Maybe he's misunderstood actually.

Katherine

I really enjoyed the coffee stop halfway around which Stef laid on for us in true Pannier touring fashion. I don't think I've ever been so grateful - this makes me sound like a total snob - I don't think I've ever been so grateful for a hot mug of instant coffee! It was just the way he had you know his bike there with a full frame bag and then all of a sudden out of nowhere like this whole Bakewell pudding comes out and it's still warm from the bakery down his road in the morning it was absolutely delicious. That was so good because it was about freezing point but with the wind chill it was sort of minus 2 minus 3 and I don't remember the last time I did a whole ride with my insulated puffer jacket on and a waterproof that was really cold. We've just come down to this little stone bridge just a little bit up from Ladybower reservoir and as you can probably hear Stef is cooking up a brew which is much needed because it's a little bit freezing on the extremities. We've been sort of tracking around the edge of the reservoirs it goes into the valleys and on one side it will be lovely and beautiful understand it's not actually that cold on that side but then you go on to the other side of the of the reservoir valley and it's yeah there's still snow all over the place and freezing biting winds so I think we're all ready for a nice warm drink, and Stef's actually got a Bakewell pudding for us which is very authentic Peak District fare, which looks - I was gonna say looks really appetizing but the way he's peeling the foil off…

Tom

Looks a bit like a quiche with almonds on it yeah. 

Katherine

Do you often have coffee outside on your rides or are we the exception?

Stef

Basically always got coffee-making apparatus on me all the time yeah... First aid kit, coffee making, pen maybe for sketching stuff you know it's a bit too fast paced this ride though isn't it? This is the Bakewell pudding important yeah Just softer and more almondy without the icing anyway. Is it still sort of warm?

Katherine

How would you describe the flavors and the texture of a Bakewell pudding?

Tom

I think with the Bakewell Tart with the icing layer and the cherry you get the almond flavor and often it's got that line of sort of cherry jam almost as well as well but the almond flavor doesn't have the same like sort of richness as we've got going on in here and also the tart is a little bit more cakey whereas that's a bit more like a treacle tart. How do you distill a Bakewell Tart into a bar?

Christian

First of all you eat a lot of tarts! First of all all our bar flavors there's like probably two key elements in their original foods they try and pick out so we've got a lot of almonds in there some really nice like freeze-dried sour cherries but there's a debate on whether it should be cherry or raspberry for bakewell as well.

Katherine

So is the original cherry?

Christian

Raspberry I think is original.

Katherine

We've got a couple of visitors here, I've got two ducks literally like a metre away just

looking quite eager yeah we're not the first people here are we?

Duncan

It's a popular stop off spot when all the geese and stuff migrate through, you just turn up one day and there's hundreds!

Katherine

A popular picnic spot too and this is why they've come to get all the crumbs.

Stef

We stopped at what people would know as the Slippery Stones bridge it's kind of a nice plunge pool on the Derwent, peaty water plunge pool it's kind of the dead end on a gravel bike the end of the two reservoirs and then we loop all the way back round the eastern bank that's towards Bamford and that's where the gravel, so we've just done nice quiet roads bit of gravel in there now it's gravel all the way back. Feels kind of wild for where it is considering where it is, but yes nice it kind of is a dead end yeah time to head. Right so it's gravel now there's a couple of gates to stop at...

Katherine

So like all good rides we're finishing in the pub we're in the Angler's Rest which is quite appropriate got Duncan with us who's a very very keen fisherman if that's the term, angler, and just enjoying a few pints was a way for our fish finger butties.

So we're at the end of the ride today but I'd really be interested to know Stef how you go about planning a ride like this one that we've done today and what sort of things you take into account when planning that. Stef - I think a big part of riding bikes and the slow travel vibe that we try and recreate is also the time off the bike so today it was a case of thinking about a couple of scenic-y, nice sheltered picturesque places to stop and brew up get people warm again. Places where there's water so technically next to the rivers that's also a pretty good pretty good thing do I look out for if we're planning a lunch stop or something. Even if it's just for washing stuff at the end but you're having water for hot drinks getting people warm again. And that was kind of har - sorry there's a piano recital happening! Is there actually? Do they do requests?

Sometimes there's natural points and ride when you'll stop and today it was one of them everyone was pretty cold actually, I've borrowed Katherine's gloves I thought I'd be able to get away with it but everyone was cold and it was the right point to stop and enjoy it a bit.

Tom

I would never normally think about a water point either because I'm not normally carrying cooking equipment unless I'm touring so yeah that's that's a really nice thing to bear in mind.

Stef

Yeah the off the bike stuff for me is just almost just as important as the riding so…

Duncan

I think your trips are possibly just the best experience I mean that's the best way of summarizing it. Like really good routes and all that but I've come away of some of my favorite camp food I've ever tried, some of the curries and things like that they're just absolute winners and there's always those little memorable additions sort of outside of just the cycling and always notice if you're somewhere else and you're getting you know - you seem always very keen to take on the hospitality of guys from all those sorts hiking trekking mountaineering side of things and always picking up on the individual tips and tricks like their traits and all that and incorporating that into the Pannier side of things so you have like nice aspects that fairly unique... Tom - I guess it's those things as well that really help when you're taking a group out of people that might not all know each other. The friendships probably really start to gel at those moments. Stef - Yeah and people enjoy getting stuck in you know we were talking earlier about that educational aspect and learning a couple little things that they might then take on their next trip, whether it's a way to make a hot drink or using a different stove or working out which stove is more packable than the others where they can carry all their stuff like today I just lobbed everything in a frame bag quickly  but when you've got more stuff that process of packing and working out where the best place for stuff is... it takes a lot of getting used to as everyone round table knows. Even the term bike packing is not even that well recognized, so when you're talking about giving someone at the start of a trip if someone's hired bags you might leave a pile of seat packs, frame bags and bar bags and you've you've kind of got to expect them to have never fitted them to a bike so there'll be that process of learning how to use the new new type of bag. How to fit it how to pack it an avoiding 'bag sag' which is the…

Tom

How do you avoid bag sag?

Stef 

Avoiding bag sag is experience based...

Katherine

Thinking about bike packing being a relatively undefined term, what would what does it

mean to you?

Stef 

If someone if someone who didn't know what bike packing was, didn't know what this mass niche of gravel riding was, didn't know what adventure cycling was, you could say it's backpacking with a bike. I think that's the best way of describing it for me because kind of denotes traveling that's what it's about. It's always about that kind of overnight aspect and carrying everything that you need to have a good time out on the bike and that's what differs for everyone really. For me I like to have a set of equipment on me for others they'll go and do the same tour I'm doing but with literally nothing so I think that's how it varies. It's the comfort levels and what you get out of it that define what type of bikepacker you are so yeah I definitely take the heavier more comfort level, but a couple of events last year like Silk Road it was a case of really stripping back what I needed and redefining what bikepacking was for me. Testing a few ideas out, I'm quite happy to now revert back to the leisure side of by packing now now we've finished that. Kind of need the same amount of stuff whether you're going out overnight like you guys did in the cold of Oxford as you do you could you could have that same amount of get on your bike and go away for much longer. 

Definitely if you're looking for the more unpaved stuff the new form of setup is the way to go really and it's about adjusting to how you can carry what you need to carry and what you shouldn't carry because the experience then tells you I didn't use that I don't need that yeah you work out what you need and you don't need. You don't need three merino base layers for a two-day trip, let alone a week.

Katherine

So what would be your go to pieces of kit that you never go on tour

or bike pack without?

Stef

I've decided I'm not a bivvy person so I would take a small tent. There's loads of ways of now I've got used to splitting it up which will work so rather than looking at a tent as a big single item splitting that up onto four bags, poles can go in the frame bag, and whatnot so I'm always it always a tent-person. Cookware and stuff to make drinks and food that's also a big important aspect working out what stoves and cookware works for you. Sporks are massively important, mugs and then off off the bike down jackets are a critical bit of kit and gloves as we worked out today.

Yes yeah looking at it from a riding perspective and an off-bike perspective off the bike I'd always have down jacket gloves like some sort of polar techie legging to wear off the bike to keep you warm, warm socks, sleeping bag or quilt and a pillow - a pillow is the newest, best thing ever. It's one of those experience things again because there's only so much sleep you can get when you're got your head against a wet pair of shoes or inflated dry bag which is a good tip for anyone if you do need a pillow blowing into the dry bag and then sealing up's a good one but an actual outdoor inflatable pillow is changes totally changed my sleep when I'm outdoor yeah that makes a big difference because you're fresh ready for the next day.

Snack wise definitely some sort of Tunnocks material and Outdoor Provisions but yet yeah food and drink supplies for the amount of time we do, wherever we're going if we're going Scotland or wherever always trying research a local one pot meal to try and cook when we're there. So that that always forms the bones of some sort of recipe or or ingredients list, whether it's Cullen Skink or a Bosnian Stew, all that kind of informs what will cook and then yeah sketchbook and pens always like making notes and sketching and sometimes you need to not rely on a phone for that sort of thing.

Katherine

So you talked a bit there about when you're camping, do you find it's best to plan where you're gonna be and when or do you think that flexibility is a bit more important that would massively depend on what sort of trip it was if we for example go into the Picos in Spain in February and that's like semi planned to where we're gonna be not to the exact spot. What would what - I'm gonna turn it around, what would you look for?

Katherine

I guess this is something that I've learned through as you say stop getting it wrong getting very sneaky like when we were in Oxford camping under the trees and in the morning you could see a really hard Frost in the open area. Looking at the cloud cover overnight will tell you how warm it's gonna be or you know, BBC weather app. Somewhere sheltered somewhere that's not too close to the water if you're in high summer and there's midges and things like that.

Stef

As you said I would look for somewhere semi sheltered, by a river but not right next to it it's quite nice having some water.

Katherine

What's the worst place that you've camped?

Stef

A hundred percent I know exactly where this is without even thinking about! It was uh - we were on a moor we made a we did a film trip in a few years ago in north of Scotland good which we called Beulah, which is up to Cape Wrath and I was already nervous because I was with Will who you met on your last podcast from Brother, Jordan and Luke and I could just tell Luke and Jordan were flagging a bit. It was quite late and the weather was white at this point but we just headed up into this dead-end valley with no shelter whatsoever. Jordan fell in the river Luke was like ready to go and find the nearest train station and we ended up like camping basically on a on a floating bog thing and it stormed and it was it was horrendous. I think that's that's another point of these if you're taking or if you're - there's a mental pressure of being responsible I guess if you're someone who's planned a route, and that was an I when I was like oh this is this is bad. This is no but this is never this is never gonna happen again, yeah we tried to cook some sausages, is just it was tried to get some sausages it was just like nothing was working out we went yeah... everyone just tried to go to sleep but but eight o'clock in a bog and it was it was just miserable.

Katherine - You've done a lot of touring not only in the UK but all over Europe as well both on your own or with Pannier. How does that compare and you think the UK is more or less accessible than those places for say introduction to bikepacking?

Duncan

We're far denser here in the UK population wide so it's it's almost easier to go do your first foray of a local loop because it's everything's quite widely documented a lot of voices on the same stuff there's always amenities nearby as you said, but then you go into Europe and the possibilities are almost endless you know there's massive tracts of land to alpine regions through mountains which are probably quite imposing for your first time if you're not like, if you're not an experienced sort of person or aware of like hut networks or how all that sort of stuff works and your resupply could actually be a full day's ride away which makes it quite tricky. We found out the hard way on one of our trips when we left the National Park trying, trying to find somewhere to sleep we just come out of a huge national park and it was straight to competitive agricultural lands because you know the land is suddenly available for that kind of use and that's all it was and there was like one wooded copse in, like that we could see in the distance so we made our way towards that and it was night fall when we got there cos it was winter in Spain and turned out there was someone hunting and they've let us know of a lovely warning shot and like we'd interrupted someone's hunt, they they were definitely disgruntled and not law-abiding in the way that they were going about letting us know.

So we kind of ran off with a tail between our legs, all white as a sheet and ended up there was nothing around and sneak into a cattle shed on one of the farms to sleep the night and then you don't sleep properly cuz you just think that the same disgruntled farmer that just shot at you is just gonna show up any second now and you know you don't sleep all night but you know it was warm and dry and it was Christmas Eve, Eve in a cattle shed so no immaculate conceptions either thankfully.

Katherine

I guess it depends where you go if you want something really wild and remote then you can get pretty lost in Scotland very easily.

Stef

I think the unpaved thing is key for this really finding wilderness or what feels like wilderness and escape especially in the UK there are many places left that you don't see anyone or really feel remote or or lost and that's why we did focus on the Desert of Wales trip because I mean that in terms of accessibility to get to start on finish points, that that area of the valley and Mid Wales is is really special for that because even after what I've just said but even a lot of the road not visited and it really feels like the middle of nowhere and that's I think that's what people are seeking. 

Katherine - It's still a human influence because somebody's put it there but it feels a lot less 21st century than a tarmacked road I guess?

Stef

Well that's what if we're going back to the Europe thing that's the interesting and the hard bit about it because all of that amazing route infrastructure there lot of which we've ridden is basically is there military and in Scotland, are all old military influenced roads and networks so good has come of bad almost, and you know they're things like our bunker tour in the South of France with Max Leonard really opened my eyes to that and how important that Military Road building process has been for opening up and unlocking the mountains for cyclists. Mountain biking slightly different because you're open to it all that -

Duncan

Yeah mountain biking you can tell what's an old donkey trail when you're in the Alps because like you just know as soon as it starts to get steep switchbacks at a radius of - well like the hiking trails they switch back to tight to be very flowy but it was an old donkey track for lugging stuff the switchback would be just open enough to hold plenty of speed and they're really common in certain tracks of the Alps and you can be riding along and then you know or you can see it's dipping away from you, and the corners almost follow like a predefined format and you know it's probably an old donkey track, so it's amazing how.. that's like a Ash Smith who organises TransProvence, just has archaic maps of old land uses old like the valley where he used to live and you know they'll be like all there used to be a terrace here 400 years ago which means there's a path to the terrace and they're going reopen a path because it's still there cut through that rock and everything like that and get enough wheels across it in a new trail is opened. Like you say with a gravel wagon it's mostly moving vehicles to get something of that width around which was pretty much war and that and I think events like Torino Nice have you know a lot of the Italian French so front to thank for all of their how important.

Katherine

Do you think an appreciation for the landscape that you're in whether it's where these trails have originated from or you know when the bothies were built and why do you think that's important to people that are passing through them?

Stef

I mean I find it interesting just mentioned that bunker trip that Max helped organize and that that was fascinating the process of building this huge bunker infrastructures in the mountains is just incredible and so then riding the routes that they used to build them and transport personnel and everything up and down them and resupply it's not just the building of them is the logistics of how they were used as well back in the day like that I find that really interesting. Shuttling up food supplies and crepes and whatever they used to take up, I just find it so interesting.

Katherine

And it's such a contrast to the cycling mania that we've had in the UK that's you know road cycling go as fast as you can, Watts, FTP and it's just such a contrast it's about like exploring where you are, the history like you said, the wildlife and and I think the more that you understand about the impacts that you're having and what you're taking the more you respect it and actually change they behave.

Stef

I think it takes a trip whether you're riding hiking whatever you're doing spending time outdoors and surviving is is a huge learning curve on that front I mean even the big thing on Silk Road was two sheets a day like rations, like it sounds silly but that's how much you needed so that's how much you stocked up.

Katherine

And that worked?

Stef

No,well different days are different but it is it's a thing where that's what you learn that that is what you the minimum you need to get by and what you actually need versus what's just nice to have. 

Katherine

So we spoke a little bit about your tours with Pannier but I think it's from an outsider's perspective, or even having been on one of your tours, it's so much more than just bikepacking tours. Can you tell us a little bit about the philosophy behind Pannier, where it's come from, what you really think it is today?

Stef 

We've coined this fifteen kilometers an hour Club and the feedback so far has been positive, in that people understand that evokes a sort of slow travel appreciation of riding bikes. In reality we probably even the trips probably even end up being less than that probably about five to ten.

Duncan

I remember that morning we got off the train to snow in Italy and we didn't expect it to be snowing and we're really cold and we're absolutely tannin' and our average speed was 15 kph and we felt like we were tannin' it, was just like deep snow.

Katherine

I remember when I came on Route Beer Ramble last March and I was amazed we've got the end of the day and the first day which was pretty big and it was 15 kph and I was like what, I don't feel like we've been riding slow obviously it's mixed surface and then you're like stopping, and chatting and like having a little snack and things so... it didn't feel overly fast or overly slow it was just that sort of sweet spot touring pace like yeah I think you nailed it.

Stef

It is a sweet spot and some trips, whatever trip you're doing it you look you pretty much end up around that. If you're talking about planning routes or planning trips for the first time it's probably a good benchmark to go off in terms of what you're capable of distance wise yeah. So base your trips on doing 15 kilometres an hour if you like stopping and riding at a normal speed anyway. 

We've talked a bit about the off the bike stuff as well as on the bike. It's if I see bikes is much more of a tool for experience I think that probably shows in the Pannier stuff, so it's accessible, challenging adventure.

Katherine

I think from a personal perspective we chatted a couple of years ago when I was really struggling to find like-minded people to go on these sorts of rides with and we were talking you know should we make some sort of forum or some way of getting I don't know like young professional or non-professional whoever it is I was single at the time and it was like looking for just mates I didn't have anyone really in my area that wanted to do these sorts of things. One of the things that struck me most about Route Beer Ramble is just bringing in these collection of people from all over that area or even the UK and beyond who were like minded to get together and then it's not just what happens on that trip it's what goes beyond and I've kept in touch and actually really good mates with a lot of people from that tour.

I think you're helping to facilitate that which is really incredible. It's more than just going on a tour, it's building this off road community.

Katherine

Yeah that's our aim and I think that's the difference between the kind of three four-day, trips that might not appeal to some people that come on the weekend stuff and it's really one of the main reasons why we try and do the overnight, short, weekend trips because a that's what a lot of people have time for and there are a lot more accessible so you can get we talked a lot about

wild places and going in search of escape but the Route Beer Ramble last year really hit home to us that actually just a really nice city-to-city trip with a group of people's fun and people want to do it. This year in March there hopefully will be 60, 70 people doing it this year and that will hopefully roll on and yeah get more people knowing about each other and knowing about unpaved bikepacking.

That's what keeps us going is meeting people and then people who may have hired a bike and some bags to start with on one of our trips and then they'll message in like two months and they'll have a bike and some bags and going and doing their own stuff that's really cool. That's cool to see, that's what we want to see and then they will still come on other trips that we do because it is about that group and social aspect and bringing people together whether it's 15 people on one of our normal trips or 50 people and a more relaxed weekend experience yeah.

Katherine - I've got  an important question, are you a dangler, or not? Do you dangle mug?

Stef

I did.I've stopped dangling. It's really hard to say in public this one. Dave actually got really ill on Silk Road we think it was from a dangled mug so yeah so watch out. Yeah there is, there is a good argument for stuff I started dangling - people that always say like you've just got stuff all over your bike and that's literally just cuz I can't fit it in the bags I've got so there's an argument for that,and mugs are annoying things to pack in a seat pack or whatever so there is rationale for it… but I have to I've changed my tune there was no dangling today.

Katherine

So that's a wrap on episode 2, been riding around the Hope Valley with Stef, Dunc, Luke and Christian even in the snow.

Tom

Yeah it was beautiful it was really cold and that kind of made it just even nicer to get to the Anglers Rest. If you want to do the route yourself then you can download it from our komoot account.

Katherine

There's a couple of choices for the route from this one. I've got the one that Stef planned but then I thought I'd also upload one that I did while I was up there that week with Alpkit from their Hathersage store which is just up the road and that was a more technical route I'd say, so a bit of hike-a-bike and some pretty gnarly descending for for a gravel route so you've got the option of both. The first one with Stef was fairly mellow and much more sort of entry level and then you've got the option of a more tricky route so you can pick and choose really.

Tom

Yeah if you want to take our route as well but you feel like you want to do an extra sort of 10, 20km then of course you can do that in komoot and you can just add on little sections around, do have a little play with it if you want to extend it.

Katherine

And in addition to the routes in the Peak district obviously you can check out the Second City Divide route on komoot so this is another one of the features where you can literally pick up pre-made routes via the collections so you can browse those and it's actually one of my freelance day jobs if you like, site hustle whatever you want to call it is that I work with komoot to upload gravel and mountain biking long distance trails all over the UK. So it's not just the route it's

really handy information about how to get there, what kind of bike you'll need what the terrain is like, whether there's hotels or guest houses being these camping spots all the sort of local highlights and things - yeah you can tell I do a lot of this!

So we'll put the link to the Second City Divide one in there and if you haven't used komoot before and you'd like to give it a go then they've given you the option to have a free region bundle so we'll put the instructions for that in the show notes. It's super easy just have to make an

account and enter the voucher code UNPAVED all in capitals. And another thing to mention whilst we're talking about free stuff is that we've got a giveaway so you'll have heard on episode one about Brother Cycles from Will with Brother in the Wild which is their annual bike packing weekender, sort of mini festival you've done several times that I'm doing the first time this year so komoot have given us two tickets to give away all you have to do to enter is to sign up to our newsletter and we're gonna pick at random in early March. All the details are on our website for that one.

Tom

So I hope you've enjoyed listening next time we're in Oxfordshire with the Racing Collective and also chatting to Lachlan Morton over whatsapp I think it was in the end from Australia.

Tom

That podcast is all about when you take off-road riding to extremes so the focus of it is GBDURO which is essentially Lands End to John O'Groats off road you might have heard about that if you did you'll know that Lachlan who rides for Rapha EF as a road cyclist but as also been doing lots of off-road stuff did it superfast, so we're talking a bit about that but also about the planning of that ride, the idea behind it and the experiences of Tom Pro-Bear you understand that when you hear it Tom Pro Bear riding it Philippa Battaye riding it and Mile Resso riding it as well in that podcast yeah.

Katherine

Philippa and miles organising it as well, which is quite something yeah it's a real corker it wasn't just a ride it was a bikepacking overnighter so a little bivvy in the frost as well which yeah it was probably the coldest night I've had this year but really incredible, incredible experience so we're looking forward to that one. At some point we should compare bivvy versus hammock with you at some point with you being a hammock advocate. We haven't really done sleeping in detail yet so we will get to that at some point but you've been listening for long enough to this episode so until next time.